Manabu Koga’s Subculture Commentary: “JAPANESE CITYPOP”
I would like to thank the contributors to this podcast: Mr. Oganabu, Mr. Kusumi, and Mr. Miyakodori. I provided a rough translation for anyone unfamiliar with Japanese. Please forgive any errors, as I’m not a professional translator. For a full transcript in Japanese click here: 日本語バージョン
—————————————————————————————————————————————————
Artist/designer Manabu Koga explores the subcultures, art, hobbies, fashion, design, photography, and underwater beauties that connect to his new project Sim Alice.This episode’s theme is “J: JAPANESE CITYPOP” – Part 1 Together with guests Ryusei Miyakodori and Kiyoshi Kusumi, we delve into City Pop—1980s Japanese music that began gaining global popularity in the late 2010s.Part 2: Scheduled for release on May 14, 2025Featuring:Manabu Koga (Artist/Designer)Ryusei Miyakodori (Music Writer)Kiyoshi Kusumi (Art Critic)
楠見清
Youichi Takizawa – “Endless Summer: Van Paugam 2024 Remix”
Analog vinyl single (B-side: Youichi Takizawa – “Endless Summer: 1982 Mix”)
https://mag2.base.shop/items/94322546
00:02
"I'm artist and designer Oganabu.”
” I'm music writer Miyakodori.”
“I'm art critic Kusunokiyoshi.”
“We're currently preparing the Project Sim Alice, but even we aren’t sure if it’s art, a hobby, fashion, or design.”
“This channel, Ogawa Nabu Subculture Commentary (小がサブ), explores the fields surrounding me to help define what genre Sim Alice truly belongs in.”
“This episode’s theme is Japanese City Pop. Today's project is presented by Ryusei Miyakodori. Thank you for being here.”
“Thank you very much.”
“Lately, I've been writing various articles, and actually, the initial spark for this whole thing came from a DJ—by total coincidence—when I was working on a different piece. I came across his blog.”
[Music]
“He had been writing blog posts like diary entries about how his YouTube account got banned.”
“He was actually one of the first people to upload this kind of content.
Back then, due to copyright issues, he received warnings and eventually had his account deleted.”
“When was that again? Oh right, February 2019, that’s when his first uploaded."
01:24
"It was actually in 2016 when he did that.
So Japan—well—was kind of late. I mean, back then in Japan, no one was really talking about it yet.”
[Music]
“I think most people didn’t even know that sort of thing was happening at all.”
[Music]
“He was DJing in a place in the U.S. called Square (likely a misheard place name), and he had always loved Japan and was very interested in Japanese culture. He started collecting records.”
“It seems that he first found out that this music was being called by that name (City Pop) around 2011.”
“Then, after getting his hands on a Japanese guidebook, he realized that many of the records he had been collecting were categorized under that genre.”
“So he thought—well, if that’s the case, why not take a bunch of those records, the ones that fit that vibe, and mix them all together into one continuous set and post it on YouTube?
And that’s what he did in 2016.”
“The reason he did it was because, at the time, nobody else was doing that kind of thing on YouTube.”
“Of course, maybe there were some people doing it at club events or underground parties, but that was niche—it wasn’t mainstream at all. There were almost no opportunities for the general public to hear that kind of mix."
"So, in that sense, he thought, why don’t I try making this accessible to people online? That’s how it started.”
“Then, after he posted the mix, the response was huge—especially from overseas.
He said comments were flooding in like, “What is this music?” or “Where can I find more?”
There were people from Europe and Asia commenting too, not just the U.S.”
“At the time, it wasn’t like there was a clear term like 'City Pop' that everyone was using globally, so a lot of people were discovering it for the first time.
And because he was one of the earliest to put out that kind of mix, he ended up becoming a kind of reference point.”
“But after a while, there was a copyright claim, and the video got taken down. Eventually, his account was deleted entirely. It seems like it really shocked him.
Even though he wasn’t monetizing it, and it wasn’t like he was pirating the songs—he just wanted to share the music he loved.”
“That whole incident sparked a lot of debate and awareness around how Japanese music—especially City Pop—was being treated on platforms like YouTube.
It really showed how protective the Japanese industry was being, even as interest in the genre was starting to boom overseas."
"So, from there, other people started to notice.
Even though his account was gone, the influence remained—other YouTubers began uploading similar mixes, and eventually, the term 'City Pop' became more widely recognized internationally.”
“In Japan, however, things were still quiet at that point.
There wasn’t really a widespread awareness of this overseas boom.
The genre had been mostly forgotten, seen as outdated or uncool, so it hadn’t yet been reclaimed culturally.”
“It was only after foreign listeners began to embrace it and popular media started covering the resurgence that Japan began to reconsider its value.
Kind of like, “Wait, this is our music… and now it’s popular again?”
That outside validation prompted a re-evaluation within Japan.”
“And now you see City Pop everywhere—on social media, in commercials, in anime soundtracks, even in fashion. But originally, it wasn’t this nostalgic or aestheticized thing.
It was just what was popular music in the late '70s and '80s—urban, adult, sophisticated sounds.”
“And I think that DJ’s role in rediscovering and reshaping how City Pop is consumed—especially in the West—was a major catalyst. Even though he got banned, his effort laid the groundwork for the revival."
"And what's really interesting is that, even though he was effectively erased from the platform, the influence of what he did didn't disappear. People who had listened to his mixes remembered the songs and started making playlists of their own. It was like the DNA of his mixes got passed on—people mimicked the flow, the vibe, the track selections.”
“Eventually, some of those songs started getting algorithmically recommended on YouTube—like Plastic Love by Mariya Takeuchi. That video didn’t go viral in a vacuum—it came after the groundwork had already been laid by people like him, who made those first mixes and curated that world.”
“And now, in hindsight, everyone talks about Plastic Love like it was the starting point, but really, it was just one of the breakout tracks that benefited from all the momentum building up. There were tons of other songs just as good, but they didn’t hit the algorithm in quite the same way.”
“So you could say the movement was already there—it just needed one visible success to make it real for a wider audience.”
“What’s unfortunate is that the people who made that possible—the early curators—don’t always get the credit. Especially someone like him, who got kicked off the platform entirely.
He wasn’t trying to profit or exploit anything. He was just a fan, trying to share something he loved. And in the end, it sparked a global rediscovery of Japanese music culture."
"And that’s what makes it kind of bittersweet, right? Because the whole boom started with pure passion—from someone who genuinely loved Japanese music and wanted others to experience it too. But then, once it started gaining attention, it got commercialized.”
“Labels and companies began reissuing albums, artists started appearing in new media, and it turned into this trendy thing. Which isn’t necessarily bad—it gave the original musicians a second chance at recognition. But the narrative shifted. People forgot who first lit the spark.”
“He wasn’t Japanese, he wasn’t part of the industry, and he wasn’t trying to make money.
So there was no institution to protect him or acknowledge what he contributed.
Instead, he got banned and erased, even as the very thing he promoted became valuable.”
That contradiction—it says a lot about how cultural memory works. Who gets to be remembered? Who gets forgotten? And what happens when an outsider preserves something that the originators discarded?”
“In a way, it’s a classic story. Subculture gets rediscovered abroad, gains traction, becomes mainstream, and then gets re-imported into its country of origin. And the original fans—especially the foreign ones—get sidelined.”
“But I think now there’s more awareness. There are people documenting this history, writing about it, acknowledging how this whole wave started. It’s not just about the music—it’s about the people who believed in it before it was cool."
"And I think that’s part of what this channel is trying to do too, right?
To trace those subcultural currents—not just from a top-down, industry perspective, but from the ground level, from the people who were really there.
“Because when we look at things like City Pop now, it's easy to assume it was always meant to be cool or nostalgic. But that vibe—this aestheticized version of Japan—it was shaped in large part by overseas fans who saw something beautiful in music that had been forgotten.”
“That reinterpretation then made its way back to Japan, where it was reabsorbed and kind of rebranded as part of the national cultural archive. It’s like, Oh, this is our legacy, but that wasn’t the case 10 years ago. Back then, it was considered tacky or dated—something you wouldn’t bring up unless you were being ironic or retro for fun.”
“But people abroad took it seriously. They listened to it with fresh ears, without all the cultural baggage. And because of that, they were able to appreciate the musicality, the arrangements, the emotion in a way that even Japanese listeners had started to overlook.”
“So, in this episode, we just wanted to highlight that origin point—that DJ, his passion, and how that one act of uploading a mix in 2016 quietly rewired how the world sees Japanese pop music.”
“We hope more people dig into that side of the story—not just the trending playlists or algorithmic hits, but the deeper history behind them. That’s what we want to explore more on this channel."
03:34
"It’s like only the boom arrived, and not the story behind it.
The name of that DJ—Ban Paugam, a deer-themed DJ (笑)—well, only a small number of people who were watching those early videos back then even knew his name.”
“Some people who remember that he was the first to introduce City Pop still occasionally write about it in the comments of unrelated YouTube videos. But it’s really just a tiny group of the earliest viewers who still remember. For everyone else, it’s as if he was never there to begin with, and the boom just happened on its own.”
“What’s also interesting is that the people who reacted to him the most weren’t Japanese—it was Americans—Yes, Americans. But not just Americans—really, people all over the world.
People from Indonesia, Hong Kong, of course Europe—people from France, the UK—honestly, it was global.”
“This boom isn’t just an American thing—it’s been heard and shared all over the world.
And that’s what I found truly fascinating—if you look at the comment sections on YouTube, you see so many different languages. So many people around the world discovered this music for the first time through these videos. And that’s just really amazing to me."
“It felt like only the boom arrived, leaving behind the story of its origin. The DJ, known as Van Paugam, was recognized by a small group of early viewers who saw his videos at the time. Some of these individuals still occasionally mention in YouTube comments that he was the first to introduce them to City Pop. However, it's really just a handful of those early viewers who remember; for everyone else, it's as if he was never there, and the boom happened independently.”
“Interestingly, the people who responded to his work the most weren't Japanese—they were Americans. But not just Americans; people from all over the world—Indonesia, Hong Kong, France, the UK—truly globally. This boom isn't just an American phenomenon; it's been heard and shared worldwide. That's what's truly fascinating—if you look at the comment sections on YouTube, you see so many different languages. It's amazing how people around the world discovered this music for the first time through these videos."
"And what’s also interesting is how the cultural exchange happened.
It’s not just about the music itself; it’s about how a whole generation of people in the West—who may have never even been to Japan—were drawn to the aesthetic, the nostalgia, and the allure of Japanese culture through this music.”
“And it’s not only the music that’s gaining attention. It’s influencing other art forms too.
The aesthetic of City Pop, its imagery, its vibe, is showing up in fashion, design, even in global art movements. People are incorporating it into their creative work, and that’s something that’s really exciting.”
“It’s like, in a way, City Pop has become a global cultural bridge.
It’s connecting people from different backgrounds, different cultures, through shared love for this genre that—until recently—was mostly forgotten outside of Japan.”
“So now, when people think of City Pop, they don’t just think of the music. They think of a movement, a kind of cultural phenomenon. And it’s something that started with a small, niche group of people who were passionate about it, and now it’s become something much bigger than any of us could have imagined."
04:40
"At that time, most Japanese people had no idea that this was even becoming a thing.
Even the people at the record companies were surprised when they received inquiries about it. They were like, Why would anyone be asking about this? They were taken aback.”
“Do you remember? In 2017, after the buzz started building, there was a company in the U.S. that wanted to make a compilation album of City Pop. And when the Japanese record companies received the request for permission to make the comp, they didn’t understand why anyone was contacting them about it. They were shocked—Why are foreigners asking about something like this? And this was all happening while the City Pop wave was quietly growing on YouTube.”
“His account was deleted in 2019, so by the time the first big wave was ready to reach Japan, his presence had already disappeared. It’s like he was gone right when the boom was on the verge of crossing over to Japan."
"Personally, I’ve started calling him the modern Fenollosa—Fenollosa being the American art critic and scholar who introduced Japanese art to the West. He was someone who wanted to introduce Japan’s culture and art to the world. But ironically, in doing so, he ended up contributing to the outflow of Japanese culture overseas.”
”In a similar way, he (the DJ) introduced City Pop to the world, but in doing so, it started to spread abroad, and eventually, it was the foreign audience that embraced it first."
"It’s really interesting, because just like Fenollosa, who was an outsider, he (the DJ) played a major role in introducing something important from Japan to the world. In both cases, the initial push came from people outside of Japan—people who loved and appreciated the culture, but who weren’t originally part of it. And in a way, that’s what made the music and the art so much more universal, because it wasn’t tainted by local biases or preconceptions.”
“The fascinating thing is that this phenomenon wasn't just isolated to one region or one country. It was a global exchange, one that crossed all borders. While Japanese people were unaware of the growing interest outside, the rest of the world was diving deeper and deeper into the culture. And by the time Japan began to notice, the music had already found its place in international culture.”
“And you can see it now. City Pop is being embraced by fans from all over the world—Europe, South America, even parts of Africa. It’s not just a fad; it’s a movement, a genre that has transcended its original time and place."
"And now, when you look at how City Pop is being received globally, you see this incredible fusion of cultures. People in countries where the genre was virtually unknown are now interpreting it, remixing it, and celebrating it in their own unique ways.”
This whole phenomenon—this rediscovery of City Pop—is more than just a music genre coming back into vogue. It’s about the way it captures a specific feeling, a time in Japan’s history, but in a way that speaks to a global audience. There’s something about the sound—the mix of jazz, funk, pop, and the rich, dreamy synths—that resonates with listeners everywhere. It’s a sound that feels nostalgic yet futuristic at the same time, and that’s why it’s still connecting with people now.”
“And this wouldn’t have happened without those early pioneers—like the DJ we’re talking about—who were there at the beginning, trying to share something they loved with the world. In the end, their passion led to something far bigger than they could have imagined."
05:49
[Music]
"Some people criticize it, saying that it’s like taking something that was part of Japan’s national culture and exporting it abroad. But I think, in a way, it’s the Western DJs who have uncovered a new form of national heritage. And I find this movement very interesting.”
“The tragic thing is that the existence of the original creators has been erased.
Yes, exactly. While people like Mr. Paugam have their names still remembered in books and history, on the internet, they've been completely erased. Their contributions have been deleted, and it’s like the person who initiated this whole thing is no longer acknowledged. It’s a sad story.”
“Japanese culture is often discovered by people overseas. We, as Japanese people, might think of something as uniquely Japanese, but it turns out, in a way, that it’s something that doesn’t really resonate or fit with the rest of the world. And ironically, things that were discovered through the eyes of outsiders, like City Pop, have become very popular.”
“It’s like the story of the Japanese "tsubo" (pottery) or, for example, Ukiyo-e prints.
When you put something in a box or a container and someone looks inside, they might find something completely unexpected, something that was hidden all along."
06:59
"I hear this a lot, and it’s exactly that feeling.”
“ Japanese people often didn’t think it had much value, or they thought foreign, particularly Western, things were wonderful, but didn’t think much of Japanese things. Or sometimes, the value of something is taken for granted to the point where people don’t notice it. This is a common pattern.”
“There were also things that were a bit embarrassing back then, right? Hip things, I mean.”
“Yes, exactly.”
“Before the revival, there was that sense, especially in the 70s and 80s, where youth culture, when viewed from a modern perspective, had some cringy aspects to it.”
“I understand that feeling.”
“It was like, for some reason, things that were embarrassing were being admired, which felt strange. People who remembered that time—who knew it, even just a little—would look back on themselves in those days, remember how uncool they were, and feel embarrassed. That’s the kind of feeling there was back then.”
“The values were completely different, and the music and sounds of that time were also quite different. The sound of the drums, the echoing beats, that kind of glorious, impactful sound—it didn’t sound very "now" back then. It might have been a bit outdated at the time, but ironically, for people from abroad, it was fresh, nostalgic even."
08:18
"Yeah. I heard that it felt like a nostalgic past from a future that’s never been heard before, something strange like that.”
“That kind of feeling is something that Japanese people don’t really have, right? Because we’ve lived through that era, we have a direct memory of it. But for the generation that didn’t experience that time, it seems to be something they can accept quite easily.”
“Right, exactly. So, for Japanese people, there’s a part of this current boom that’s hard to accept completely.”
“We’re interested in the nostalgic music and the memories it brings, but when it comes to things we’ve never heard before, we don’t really know how to evaluate them. There’s this feeling of confusion about it.”
[Music]
“We’ve never heard this before, and it hasn’t been a hit, right? So, when we hear it, we think, 'Who is this person?'
“That’s how Japanese people react.”
“But for people from abroad, they don’t have all that data or history. For example, they don’t know which band is connected to which, or how things came to be, where they came from.
So they can just listen and judge for themselves, which is what’s so interesting about it."
09:47
"When City Pop started to gain attention in the U.S., or rather, in Chicago, it felt like it was suddenly discovered. There wasn’t really any context around it. It was more like looking at a guidebook, and through the records they had been buying, they realized, 'Oh, there’s this kind of music,' and then they’d just start buying it, listening to it, and picking out the good tracks—kind of like creating a modern playlist. It’s very similar to how people use Spotify or services like that.”
“It’s like picking the tracks you think are good and adding them to your favorites. There wasn’t much sense of 'new' versus 'old' music. It was more about just enjoying the music itself.”
“I think they probably didn’t care much about when it was made, or the specific history or context. They were just listening to songs one by one, deciding whether it was good or not, regardless of the album or the time period. This is really the way modern music is consumed.
It fits perfectly with the rise of subscription services. So I think they were genuinely surprised, like they had discovered a treasure."
10:32
“In Japan, people used to say things like it was uncool or embarrassing, so you’d find records being sold for just 500 yen at record stores, and when people listened to them, they’d be surprised. I personally bought Yamada Tatsuro’s For You over 20 years ago at a record store in Nakano, and I think it cost around 500 to 600 yen back then. Then, for a period, it went up to 8000 yen or even more per record.”
”Some places were even selling them for over 10,000 yen, and people from overseas were buying them. Japanese records are in great condition, so they’re often not scratched and sometimes even still have the original obi strip attached.”
“There was a period when a large number of records were being exported from Japan to overseas. It lasted for several years, and it seemed like it was quite a phenomenon.
It really reminds me of Umi, in a way.”
“It’s not quite Fenorosa, but it’s like foreign people seeing a Buddha statue in a temple that’s about to collapse and being amazed by it. They’d think, 'How could something this incredible be left in such a humid place in Japan?' It feels a bit like that—a treasure stored in a cardboard box. That’s what I think it looked like to them. It was being sold for practically nothing."
"It seems like those records, which were being sold for practically nothing in Japan, were discovered by foreign collectors who were amazed by their value. It’s as if these treasures were left in a dusty cardboard box, abandoned in a corner. The condition of Japanese records was so good—rarely scratched, and sometimes with the original obi still attached—that it made them incredibly desirable. People were getting these records at incredibly low prices, while they were being sold overseas for much higher amounts.”
11:43
"Yes, exactly. It was the kind of time when you could buy a whole box of records for next to nothing. It was like buying a whole box for just a few bucks.”
That’s exactly how it was. DJs and music enthusiasts, the so-called 'nerds' who were collecting records in Japan, started flying in just to buy them around 2017 or 2018. They started getting attention on TV, where they were treated as 'eccentric foreigners.'‘
”At that time, I don’t think the Japanese even realized that a 'boom' was happening. It was just a curiosity for people into music and collectibles. But then, something like "Midnight Door" started getting played millions of times, and suddenly, it became a huge thing.
The mainstream media in Japan, the so-called 'ordinary newspapers' and 'world media,' all suddenly started paying attention, and there was this shift from the 'embarrassing' thing to something like 'Wow, Japan is amazing!'“
“So, what was once considered embarrassing started being praised, and then the Japanese didn’t really know how to handle it. It was like looking at old photos of themselves and being told, 'Wow, you look so cool!'"
12:37
"City Pop" as a term started being used from that time, although it wasn’t a term that existed originally. I don’t think the term "City Pop" was very common among Japanese music fans at the time. When I was a kid, I often heard the term "new music" instead.”
“I have memories of hearing "pop" used, but it was more in reference to certain artists rather than as a general genre term. It wasn’t really a widely used term. Genres like "folk" or "new music" were much more commonly recognized in society. “
Also, "kayoukyoku" (traditional Japanese pop music) was a term that was used frequently at the time, and people associated it with music programs on TV, whereas "new music" artists often didn’t appear on TV. There was this image where people thought that not appearing on TV was 'cool.'
“There were a lot of music programs on TV at the time, so that kind of image stuck with me as a kid. But for foreigners, it seems like they either hear it and think, 'Is this good or not?'"
13:54
"There’s a bit of judgment going on, right? If the sound is sparkling, they might think, 'This is it.' And then, if it’s something that Japanese people might like, but we think it’s a bit different, it feels like there’s quite a bit of distance between Japanese tastes and ours. That contrast is actually interesting. It's really fascinating how you can be introduced to songs you’ve never heard before.”
“In the American hit charts, rhythm is usually the focus, but in Japan, it's more melody-centered, right? There's a huge difference between the global charts and Japan's charts, and Japan's music scene is so big that it's almost a complete 'Galapagos situation.' Well, that’s off-topic from City Pop.”
“But, even in a rhythm-driven country like America, there are quite a few people who listen to City Pop tracks, which are more melody-driven than rhythm-driven. When you talk to them, they mention that there haven’t been many melody-centric tracks for quite a while, and, on the contrary, they found it refreshing."
15:08
"There aren't many songs over there that have strong melodies or are somewhat emotional. The unique, sophisticated progressions of Japanese music, which are more nuanced, ended up resonating with them, fitting the times just right. When I ask Japanese people living abroad, they often say that a lot of foreigners listen to Japanese music.”
“I've heard that people abroad listen to Japanese music even more than in Japan. Japanese people tend to have preconceived notions like, 'If it's this artist, it must be this song.' But over there, people will listen to songs from minor albums, even if they’re the third track on the B-side, and if they like it, that’s the only song they’ll listen to. And, of course, they listen to it in Japanese. They really listen to the entire song in its original form. They don't understand the lyrics, but they still listen. I sometimes see comments on YouTube where people ask, 'What is this song about?' or ask if someone can copy and paste the lyrics in Roman characters. It's funny because they don't understand the meaning, but they remember the song by the sound."
16:24
"They must be singing along while reading in Roman characters. They probably want to sing it, right? Karaoke, they want to sing karaoke. But they don’t know what it’s saying, so… yeah.”
“When it comes to music with a melody focus, in the late 70s, there was a genre in the U.S. called AOR (Album-Oriented Rock). For Americans, that type of music might have been seen as a bit of a past embarrassment, right? But then, Japan rediscovered City Pop, and it was kind of like a cultural movement where they brought back something that had been overlooked or forgotten.”
“Ah, that's true. It’s like the image of the West Coast, with those melodic and sometimes sophisticated tracks. There were plenty of those kinds of songs, and for people abroad, it was a bit nostalgic, but also a little embarrassing. It was music from the generation of their parents, not their own generation."
17:29
"Well, in Japan, it’s a bit embarrassing to listen to songs that are somewhere between Enka and Kayōkyoku, songs that were popular a little while ago. Like mood music. Yes, mood music or 'mood Kayō'. Young people don’t listen to those, right?”
“But overseas, people are really listening to those old Japanese songs, even Enka. Some even think, 'This is interesting!' Japanese New Music was of course influenced by 1970s American pop, right? So those songs were, well, kind of modeled after them.”
“They’re similar but slightly altered in parts. Of course, even if they tried to copy directly, the Japanese elements would inevitably come out. Whether it’s the performance or arrangement, Japanese uniqueness would shine through. That’s why I think the feeling for Americans is one of nostalgia but also something new.”
“And when these albums, really abandoned, were piled up in the corners of record stores, it was like finding treasures. The Japanese thought, 'What a waste, leaving these records just sitting there in the store.' It was like with Japanese paintings or Buddhist statues."
18:35
"I really think it's the same feeling. So, I mentioned the word 'Fenollosa' to him the other day. I told him that he is the modern-day Fenollosa. He didn’t really know who Fenollosa was. I don't think he’s very famous, to be honest. Yes, foreign people, like the ones in the Meiji era, came to Japan and taught various things, and then left.”
“It seems like he didn’t really know about him, so I sent him a link to the Wikipedia profile. I explained that Fenollosa made these contributions, and that he is doing the same thing today in the present time. He was really moved by it.”
“I think it’s amazing that he’s doing something that Fenollosa once started. It’s really interesting that the concept of 'nationalism' didn’t exist in Japan before. If Fenollosa was the one who made the Japanese people first conscious of the idea of a nation, then City Pop, in a way, was a new form of 'nation.' I think it’s fascinating that the Japanese left these treasures unknown and abandoned, just like that."
19:46
"[Music] Discovering something that had been overlooked and spreading it worldwide—this is the role that DJs played in popularizing it. I really think the power of YouTube and the internet had a huge impact on this. Without those, it probably wouldn’t have been discovered or communicated. I think that’s true.”
“I’ve been thinking lately about why DJs discovered City Pop instead of J-Pop. There was a time, a little later, when J-Pop had its boom in Japan, when millions of CDs were sold, right? In the 90s, with the Komuro Sound and artists like Hikaru Utada, there was a time when CDs were selling in massive quantities in Japan. But even now, J-Pop hasn't exploded internationally in the same way. Of course, there are still some enthusiasts who are slowly starting to focus more on J-Pop, but I think the real explosion of City Pop was probably due to it being on vinyl records."
21:00
"Yeah. The fact that DJs were playing vinyl records and spreading the music to a large audience—this is a pretty big reason, I think, why it became so popular. Since these records were released in the 80s, during the time when vinyl and CDs were both around, that timing is significant. So, Van Paugam, the DJ who initially spread it, could only play vinyl records.”
“He doesn't play CDs. He always does his events using vinyl. Essentially, he can only play music that was released on vinyl, so albums that were only released on CD just can't be played by him.”
“That's why certain older tracks from that era were featured. The term 'J-Pop' started emerging in the 90s, right? Or maybe it was later? J-Pop started becoming more common in the 90s. Initially, it was with J-Wave, and then the J-League was established. Similar to J-Literature, the term 'J-Pop' started to appear alongside genres like Shibuya-kei."
22:11
"‘J’—Initial J. Oh, so 'K-Pop' is sort of a counterpart to J-Pop?”
“Ah, I see. Right. JP as in J-Pop, and KP as in K-Pop. K-Pop is really the only one that stuck.
Well, people still say J-Pop, but yeah… Globally speaking, K-Pop is definitely more of a mainstream genre.”
“Apparently, there’s also something called C-Pop.”
“Oh, like China?”
“Yeah, China-Pop—C-Pop. K-Pop led the way, and now it’s become a global trend.”
“With CDs, the cover art is smaller, and although there are DJ machines and digital gear now, I think for DJs, spinning vinyl is still significant. Because it existed on vinyl, the music of the 80s came across as nostalgic and kind of charming. And you can understand why the number of collectors grew too.”
[Music]
“Lately, I’ve been wondering what direction this boom will go in, but it feels like instead of the hype dying out, it’s kind of settled in—like it’s become a staple. That seems to be the trend now."
23:19
"Yeah, yeah. I thought the whole City Pop thing would pass like any other boom and just fizzle out, but playlists are still being made, and when a new track gets discovered and pressed to vinyl, it still sells.”
“So… how do I put it? It feels like it’s slowly becoming more mainstream, like it's solidifying as an established genre.”
“Kind of like the Motown Sound in America.”
[Applause]
“Yeah, it really feels like it’s becoming something historical—something that will stick around. It’s become a genre in its own right.”
“At this point, it’s practically a stylistic form.”
“Yeah, a style.”
“And what’s interesting is that this style is kind of vague. From the Japanese perspective, there’s still confusion about what exactly qualifies as City Pop.”
“It’s not clearly defined, but it’s taken on a life of its own and formed into a genre anyway.”
“Originally, the Japanese City Pop of that era was vaguely modeled after things like the West Coast sound… or a kind of near-future Tokyo urban sound.”
[Music]
“Right.”
“That whole vibe, the aesthetic—it has that kind of mood or atmosphere to it."
24:31
"Yeah. Even YMO is treated as City Pop now, right? Especially overseas.
For us, we always thought of them as Techno Pop, not City Pop at all."
"Right. But now they’re included among the representative City Pop artists."
"I see. That’s really interesting. It’s not just about the beach and summer vibes—
but the urban, sophisticated image too. Back then, their music was still recorded in analog, so it didn’t have that overly clean digital sound— it had more of a human touch.
It wasn’t all programmed either, which makes it feel more organic. I think those qualities have helped it be accepted as one genre within the broader City Pop category."
"Also, the styles that emerged from YMO, right?
There was that kind of genre that came out of them, like idol pop influenced by YMO."
"Ah, yeah, totally.
Idols too— they composed and provided songs for them without resistance.
And all of that is now being recontextualized— as one of the elements that make up what we think of today as City Pop."
[Music]
25:38
"Ah, yeah, definitely.
For example, Akina Nakamori’s “Sora”—that was totally YMO’s sound, just directly applied to kayōkyoku (Japanese pop ballads)."
"Right.
Since the discovery of all this happened in the U.S., the original context got completely severed. So it’s like all the categorization got mashed together—kayōkyoku, bands, whatever—and then reassembled under the new genre label City Pop."
"Exactly. Even the visual imagery led the way over there. That neon vibe—you know, nighttime neon glow, with purple hues, pastel colors, city buildings, or stuff like the ocean, pools, resorts—that kind of artwork shows up a lot."
"Right, and overseas, anything labeled City Pop tends to come with that kind of imagery.
It’s almost become a fixed association now."
[Music]
"Yeah, it’s like the visuals and the music come as a set.
The colors, the images, illustrations—or even photos—they’re all kind of packaged together.”
“It’s kind of strange, right?” Like the image of New York or the West Coast that Japanese people once fantasized about, is now being embraced by Americans themselves.”
“There’s something ironic about that… maybe even reverse-imported, if that makes sense."
"Yeah. I don’t know exactly how to describe it, but it’s definitely an interesting phenomenon."
27:05
“This really strange phenomenon is happening— where something that passed through a Japanese filter is now returning to its original source in America.”
[music]
“That longing for the West Coast, right? The Japanese fascination with the West Coast is now being accepted by the West Coast itself. Like, Japanese people once idolized this fantasy version of New York— almost like a magical New York skyline on record covers— and now I wonder how Americans feel when they see that imagery.”
“Ah, but that’s just like… how Japanese people feel when they watch Tarantino movies.”
“Like Kill Bill?”
“Yeah, exactly. It’s kind of the same thing. That ‘weird Japan’—the mashup of different things inspired by Japanese cinema that even Japanese people find fascinating when they see it onscreen.”
“Or maybe it’s that we, ourselves, had forgotten or completely lost appreciation
for something from our own culture—and then it suddenly clicks again when we see it from the outside.”
“Like when Haruomi Hosono released his early solo albums—
he made that ‘exotica trilogy,’ right?”
[music]
“Yeah, Tropical Dandy, Bon Voyage Co., and Paraiso. Those albums were like…inspired by how Hollywood portrayed Japan in old films.”
29:22
[music]
“I think those kinds of things probably seem fascinating to Americans too.”
“And what’s important is that platforms like YouTube allowed people all over the world
to enjoy it simultaneously—there’s this kind of exoticism, a structure of exotica, that becomes almost meta—and people around the world seem to enjoy it with that understanding in mind.”
“It’s kind of like how Europeans might view Ghibli films.”
“Like in Laputa, for example—the towns and landscapes depicted are Miyazaki’s own misinterpretation of Europe, right?”
“Totally. He created this fantasy version of Europe—like, French, Italian, German people all think of themselves as very different, but Miyazaki kind of mashed them together into this unidentifiable ‘Europe.’ And still, Europeans find that depiction fascinating.”
“So it’s like this experience of going to another country, misunderstanding it a bit,
then returning home and recreating that experience through your own cultural lens.”
“That kind of broken narrative is key to what’s going on with this second wave of the City Pop boom.”
“And what’s funny is, it’s based on things that Japanese people might have once felt embarrassed about…”
30:53
“…that kind of artwork, like Eizin Suzuki’s, really captures that aesthetic.”
“And of course, there’s Tatsuro Yamashita’s For You, with its cityscapes—palm trees, neon signs, car dealerships—”
“It’s very stylized, very much a ‘city pop’ visual.”
“And the jackets really do carry that image of a Japanese idea of a glamorous, urban lifestyle—”
“a resort, a night drive, a cool summer evening by the sea.”
“It’s kind of funny, right?”
“Because these were all Japanese interpretations of the American dream—”
“filtered through Japan’s own bubble-era sensibilities—”
“and now that same aesthetic is being rediscovered by people in the West.”
“So it’s like, Japan imagined the West, then that Japanese vision of the West went back to the West—”
“and that’s what resonated.”
“It’s that whole cycle of cultural misrecognition, or mutual exoticism, maybe?”
“Like, how Americans see Japan through anime, or how Miyazaki imagined Europe in Laputa—”
“which wasn’t a real Europe, but a dreamlike one, made up of bits and pieces.”
“And Europeans still found that compelling—”
“even though it wasn’t accurate to their actual countries.”
“So now, with city pop, it’s like the West is embracing a Japan that once dreamed about the West.”
“That reversal is fascinating.”
32:14
"I think the imagery from artists like Eizin Suzuki really plays a big role in shaping what people associate with city pop."
"Even for Japanese listeners, that imagery evokes something nostalgic, a kind of emotional resonance."
"And overseas listeners, especially on the West Coast, seem to latch on to those same visuals."
"Like for compilation albums—Eizin Suzuki’s illustrations are often commissioned for those covers."
"And I’ve heard that even now, he’s still getting offers from abroad to create new artwork."
"That just shows how much that visual identity has stuck, even with foreign audiences."
"He’s been getting a lot of recognition again—exhibitions, retrospectives..."
"Yeah, totally. There’s this renewed attention lately."
"Back then, his work felt kind of... commonplace? Like it was just part of everyday life."
"I remember in junior high, our English textbook—New Horizon—had cover art by Eizin Suzuki."
"This was back in the '80s, and the illustrations had that dreamy feeling, like people floating through the air."
"They were kind of idealized visions of overseas life, like a light breeze in a foreign sky."
"And just a few years ago, Uniqlo featured Hiroshi Nagai in their UT collection."
"That really says something about how iconic that imagery has become—not just the music, but the whole aesthetic package."
33:17
"Yeah, I remember that! The Long Vacation pool scene was printed right onto a T-shirt."
"So at this point, it's not even just a 'Japanese' thing—city pop has been fully re-evaluated as a visual genre, too, not just music. It's culture now."
"And today, I really wanted to ask you about the connection with David Hockney."
"Right—the swimming pool series?"
"Exactly. Hockney’s become synonymous with pool imagery, hasn’t he? Since the ’60s, he’s been painting pools."
"Well, to be precise, he didn’t paint pools while he was still in the UK."
"Right—it started after he moved to America, right?"
"Yes. It was after he left London—escaping that kind of cultural and artistic stagnation he was feeling."
"When he arrived in California, it was a total shift: the bright sunlight of the West Coast, the open and liberating atmosphere..."
"And also, considering that Hockney is gay, I think that move reflected a kind of personal freedom, too."
"The West Coast gave him space to express himself—not just artistically but culturally, socially, and sexually."
34:52
"Yeah, I totally agree. When Hockney moved to America in the ’70s, his work truly evolved. He took pop art from the ’60s and pushed it to the next level."
"Exactly, it’s interesting because Hockney wasn’t painting from the perspective of someone already in the U.S. He came as an outsider to California, which gave him a very different lens on the West Coast."
"Yes! The difference between the gloomy skies of London and the bright, endless blue skies of California—Hockney found this stark contrast. And then, the way the light reflects off the pool and shimmers on the water, it’s like a new world entirely."
"That shimmering, sparkling effect, right? It’s almost like you can feel the California sun just from looking at the painting."
"Hockney kept painting that same scene, in various ways. There's also a minimalist aspect to his work, like the architecture—so many of those buildings he depicted were almost stripped down, minimalist. There’s no ornamentation; the pool is the focal point."
"And you can see the pool, sometimes just sparkling water or a subtle play of light on the surface. He continued this motif for years, capturing the essence of the California lifestyle."
"He was amazed when he first arrived, seeing that almost every home had a pool. It was so normal to them, but it blew his mind as an outsider."
36:18
"I remember seeing Hockney himself mention it before, about how there was this abundance of pools in California. The luxury of having a pool in the middle of the city—it really screams American culture. But in London, that’s almost unimaginable."
"Exactly, it's something you'd never see in London. In London, you'd have a backyard, not a pool."
"I remember being disappointed when I saw the 2023 Hockney exhibition. There wasn’t a single pool painting."
"Really? That’s surprising. I didn’t realize that."
"Yeah, the younger works and the later works are all there, but there wasn’t anything from his iconic pool series. Even in the recent digital works or the video-linked ones, there was nothing about pools."
"That’s curious, given that the pool series is so representative of him."
"I also went to the Hockney exhibition at the Bunkamura in Shibuya in 1992. It was an opera-themed exhibition, where they gathered all his stage designs. And even then, there were no pool works. I didn’t realize the pool series even existed until later."
37:14
"Yes, that was a record-breaking piece, the one where the lover is seen through the pool. It was sold for something like 100 billion yen, the highest price ever for a painting at the time."
"Right. That piece became the world’s highest-selling artwork. It was incredible."
"I’ve been thinking about how Hockney influenced artists like Nagai, and I wondered if there were any interviews where he mentioned this. But it turns out that Nagai said he hasn’t been influenced by any particular artist, though when he’s creating, he tries not to paint in a way that would remind people of Hockney."
"That’s really interesting! He specifically avoids making it look too much like Hockney. It's fascinating to hear that from him, especially since Hockney’s work is so iconic."
"Yeah, it’s so easy to slip into that direction, isn’t it? You could unintentionally end up with something that feels like Hockney. It’s a fine line."
"Exactly. And speaking of which, Suzuki’s works also have this shimmer effect in the water, with colors carefully separated to give a sense of depth. They’re visually striking, almost like they could be album covers."
"That’s true! The imagery from Suzuki, with those shiny, almost surreal water surfaces, really reminds me of the clean, sleek imagery from the City Pop era. It’s a strong visual language."
"Yes, and you can definitely see it in the kind of landscapes he creates. The kind of imagery with cars, signs, and streets—very much in line with that urban aesthetic, the way City Pop represented a modern, vibrant, and sometimes even nostalgic version of city life."
"It’s all about discovering new kinds of landscapes, right? Nagai, like Hockney, captures a unique urban essence, but it’s interesting how they each do it in their own way."
38:51
"For Americans, the image of a pool in a wealthy Los Angeles home was not something typically depicted in art. But when Hockney, coming from London, started to paint that, he kind of discovered that landscape."
"Exactly. Before that, pools weren't really a subject for art. But in America, artists like Edward Hopper had already been depicting the more concrete and suburban landscapes, like in his famous work 'Nighthawks.'"
"Right, 'Nighthawks' definitely has a City Pop vibe to it, doesn't it?"
"It totally does! I can totally see that as an album cover. In fact, it was used on one!"
"Oh, you're right! It's the cover for South Korean artist Yuki Nakanishi's album 'Seventh Avenue House.' That’s exactly it!"
"Yes! It’s that exact scene, the urban nightlife through a glass window—it’s such a cool, atmospheric depiction of a city at night. And at the time, no one had ever thought to make such an ordinary, almost mundane, urban scene the subject of fine art."
40:18
“Absolutely! The absence of people in the imagery of City Pop album covers—whether it’s the empty pools, beaches, or resorts—gives these artworks a certain detached, almost surreal quality. This emptiness allows the viewer to focus purely on the landscape, the colors, and the mood, much like Edward Hopper's work, which often isolates his subjects in empty, still environments.”
“Hopper’s Nighthawks captures that urban loneliness at night, but with City Pop covers, it's more about the beauty of solitude in a sunlit, almost dreamlike environment. It’s the flip side: where Hopper’s work is full of night-time introspection, City Pop offers the same but in the warmth of daylight. In both cases, the human element is either obscured or removed entirely, giving way to the sense of space and place.”
“It’s fascinating how this absence of people creates an idealized, perfect world—one that's cool, relaxed, and laid-back, which is something that probably felt very fresh to outsiders, especially Americans. The lack of human presence makes the landscape feel even more like a fantasy, a dreamy escape.”
“The way City Pop incorporates these visual elements—like empty pools or deserted beaches—certainly contributes to the genre’s mystique and allure. It’s a quiet, almost contemplative world, inviting the listener to imagine themselves in that space. Maybe it’s because of that very stillness and quiet, in a world full of people and noise, that people are drawn to it.”
“Do you think this is why City Pop resonates so strongly across different cultures, like how it blends Western influences with Japan’s own unique perspective on isolation and escapism?”
41:45
[Music]
"I think so. Yeah, I see. In that sense, there’s something that connects to the way Hopper paints the pool scenes. Like that famous piece, the one with the incredible pool scene.”
“Ah, yes, that one. In that, the person diving isn't shown, right? Just the pool, right?
Yeah, just the large pool, and it's depicted in a way where you don't see the person, just the building and the diving board.”
“It really feels similar to City Pop album covers.”
“When people appear, it's like with Kiyoshi Watanabe, and then continuing with Hisashi Eguchi, who has also been active during the same period.”
“Yeah. But back then, that kind of art style was considered a bit embarrassing for a while.
And then, yeah, it was about 10 years ago, right? It had a revival. I think this is really connected to the revival of City Pop music."
43:14
“Yeah. Yeah. From half of it, well, there's the manga art style or something like the illustration theme. It’s been rediscovered as a style, and it feels like it’s been accepted as something from that era. Works heavily influenced by pop-out art.”
”At first, those works were really accepted by Japanese people as illustrations, and then they started getting opportunities to be seen by people overseas, which follows the same flow as City Pop.”
“I think it’s interesting that they’re being evaluated like that.”
“There’s a lot of attention on it now. For example, Japanese artists' album covers are being used, and there are also illustrators who draw in similar styles emerging.”
“A lot of things that couldn’t have been imagined just a little while ago are now happening.
I think this flow is not only affecting music but also influencing the worlds of illustration and design.”
“In my opinion, the style of youth culture in Japan during the 1980s was actually influenced by American 'Futiz' (Fitz), you know."
44:39
[Music] "Yeah, like the palm trees or the red cars, they really connect to that world of American Graffiti and also to the American hot rod culture. I've been really interested in the youth culture in Indonesia lately, too. Indonesia now has such a large young population, and it’s really booming with music and motorcycles. It's very similar to Japan in the '80s. “
“Just like how, in the late '70s and '80s, Japanese people were inspired by the West Coast of America, particularly by Hoodies, and created something of their own, I think now, Indonesian youth are looking at '80s Japan or Tokyo and trying to create something of their own.”
“It’s interesting because I can finally see where the baton is passing next.”
“It’s like, even as someone who knows the '80s, I’m starting to understand it now.”
“Ah, that's why City Pop is popular in Indonesia right now. People in Indonesia really love it, don’t they?"
44:39
[Music]
“And when we talk about things like palm trees or red cars, it reminds us of the world of American graffiti, or the influence of the American coast from Fifties, and now I’m really interested in Indonesian youth culture. Indonesia has a huge young population, and music and things like bikes are really becoming popular. It’s similar to what happened in Japan in the 1980s, where Japanese people in the late 70s to 80s were influenced by America’s West Coast culture and started to create their own version of it. Now, Indonesian youth seem to be imagining 1980s Japan and Tokyo, trying to create something based on that.”
“I feel like now, I can finally understand how the baton has been passed, and I’m seeing it more clearly. Even as someone who lived through the 1980s, I’m now starting to understand it. This is why city pop is becoming popular in Indonesia now. People there really love it.”
46:04
"Yeah, city pop, and people really like Dragon Ball too, right?”
“Ah, yes, they do.”
“Dragon Ball actually started in the 1980s, right?”
“Yeah. I think a lot of people in Indonesia like Akira Toriyama’s art style. There are so many parodies of it. When American people saw Japanese culture in the 1980s, they might nothave understood it at the time.”
“I see. Not like the Americans of today.”
“Yeah, yeah, yeah.”
“Cars, Walkmans, and smartphones — that’s the shift. That’s exactly like the 1950s, right?"
[Music]
To be continued in part II
![What Happened to Takako Mamiya? [Mystery Solved]](https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5bd7707c11f7847c45b4b9dd/1653519755040-G0JWBWAOC4JXG99950LA/takako_mamiya.png)
